Talk:Ryan Security
Warped away from BS1/Bs2 : It's simple. IG reused Splicer face texture. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 03:59, March 29, 2014 (UTC) : Why Not Ducky? Dont you think its odd that they didnt use the Ducky splicer as a pre-spliced securit guard? Shacob (talk) 20:42, March 28, 2014 (UTC) :Maybe because the developers didn't want them to actually look like peace-keepers and more like mercenaries sent to assassinate a bunch of people judged too dangerous for the city? Pauolo (talk) 23:10, May 10, 2014 (UTC) : Ryans forces containing Splicers ? :If you remember the first game, it was said in various audio diaries scattered at Hephaestus that Ryan had spliced guards to protect him. Moreover, the gates of Apollo Square after it became condemned were guarded by Splicers too on Ryan's orders, according to Diane McClintock. Pauolo (talk) 22:55, May 10, 2014 (UTC) ::He probably started Splicing his men after the attack on Fontaine during September 1958. From McDonagh's recording, Fontaine's Splicers were enough frightening to be compared to "demons out of the Bible." Ryan was not stupid, he probably saw what was coming after Fontaine's death and started having Splicers among his own men. Also his men seemed relativity sane in BaS 2 which could mean they didn't start using genetic modifications since long. ::Btw, please sign your posts by writting ~ four times at the end of using the button above the writing window. You probably don't want to make an account but at least sign your posts in talk pages so we can know who to answer to. Pauolo (talk) 11:19, May 11, 2014 (UTC) Ryan Security or Rapture Security :I believe that Rapture had no official police forces. Ryan merely provided the services of his own private security business (apparently run by Sullivan) like he provided maintenance, oxygen and energy supplying to the rest of the city. There were probably justice courts held by representatives of the city like the council, but Ryan definitely controlled the authority through his mercenaries approved by the city council. And judging from the various descriptions of "Ryan's men" through each game they are mentioned in (even Minerva's Den), they were faithful to Ryan and intimidating. :Also when McDonagh says "government-types," I believe he refers the council as some kind of government since its members seemed to represent the various communities of Rapture (science, medical, industry, energy, art, security, ...), which is the point of a government. It's a shame the background of this council was never fully detailed. Pauolo (talk) 23:07, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :- :Perhaps Bots were the police force in Rapture, if the player breaks the shop windows in Fort Frolic to steal the shop goods, it is Bots acting as a police force that come to investigate the crime. Maybe Ryan thought robot police officers could not be corrupted, but criminals soon learned how to hack the Bots anyway. ::Bots and turrets were both services provided by Ryan Private Security (there's an announcement for those in Burial at Sea). They kinda replaced effectively the police force when the later was either spliced to madness or dead, but yes they only reacted to automatisms (shoot only, don't ask questions). ::As for Minerva's Den, I think those advanced bot models were only used by Rapture Central Computing to protect Minerva's Den, since the company was running all automatism in Rapture, including vital ones. But in the end, Splicers in that place simply started using them for their own personal uses, as you can see many walking around with reprogrammed bots. Also Wahl controlled the whole complex and simply reprogrammed the whole security systems of Minerva's Den to his own convenience. Pauolo (talk) 11:31, May 11, 2014 (UTC) ::::Are the constables (a.k.a Ducky) part of Ryan's Private Security detail or were they a separate entity? Thought I should ask first before adding more into the article. Tricksteroffools (talk) 23:28, November 1, 2014 (UTC) ::::I get the impression that Ryan Security and Rapture Security are two seperate entities. Rapture Security is the general police force run by Sullivan who supposidly follows the Councile's orders. Their job was to deal with murder, theft and smuggeling. The normal jobs of cops. Ryan Security is owned by Ryan and takes orders from Ryan. These guys as we see in Burial at Sea, did not act like the police. They acted like hired thugs and enforcers. Ryan calls them "sharks" at one point. sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:45, November 2, 2014 (UTC) :::::I sorta see your point, but have to disagree on other details. Sullivan is an employee of Ryan Industries, he reports directly to Andrew Ryan. I suspect that Sullivan oversaw the police forces contracted by the city council to uphold the law in Rapture. :::::The thugs running about in BASE2 are probably a branch of Rapture Security. Think the SWAT team compared with the regular uniformed beat cop. I believe Ryan Security and Rapture Security are synonymous, but the forces encountered in the Dept. Store were just a small, specialized, militaristic division compared with the rest of the police force. :::::Unownshipper (talk) 23:02, November 2, 2014 (UTC) ::::::The rest of the police force would be the Ducky. I remember seeing one of them in BioShock 2 with a big R logo on the back, so I guess this Splicer model is meant to represent the regular Ryan Security/Rapture Security agent. Pauolo (talk) 00:05, November 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::Should we detail the possible branches of Rapture/ Ryan security? From the constables to security agents to "SWAT" teams/ Spliced specialists? Tricksteroffools (talk) 02:10, March 2, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::Without an actual chart showing the breakdown of the force or any real names of the different branches, it would just be a lot of speculation and guessing. How are we to know that a Ducky is more or less powerful/highly ranked than a Ryan Security agent? He looks weaker and wasn't at the big fight in the store, but on the other hand he had the strength/abilities to outlast the other members of Ryan Sec until Jack arrives. See what I mean? :::::::::Unownshipper (talk) 00:29, March 3, 2015 (UTC) "a city without law or god." Where is this quote from ? Is there a reference to it actually in the game ? (the search on this wiki system has much to be desired when it cant multiple word match phrases properly) an outside yahoo search only turned up (similar result of) this wiki page as only having that quoted text. It make no sense to have 'no law' (anarchy?) -- what does the 'ryan security' (or constables) enforce or how do you run commerce if there are no laws to enforce compliance of contracts and such? 10:54, March 28, 2015 (UTC) : :It is a game reference from BioShock 2. :Unownshipper (talk) 12:41, March 28, 2015 (UTC) :"one man chose" "a city free of law and god" --- more of Lamb's weasel words, as obviously more than just 'one man' chose to be in Rapture with that philosophy inforce. Of course she is demented enough to think it is possible to remove humanity from humans.... :Rapture was built around a''' principle of minimal government interference, "a city free of law and god." :'the'' should be there because the second section of the sentence details more specificly the particular "principle of minimal government interference" Rapture was built around. (ignoring the ludicrous proposal that a situation of 'no law' can exist in any possible society). : 13:13, March 29, 2015 (UTC) ::I don't think anyone can deny that Lamb is extrapolating Rapture's state to justify her philosophy/ambition, just as any other politician (Ryan too). There were laws in Rapture, with the most elementary ones being no contact with the surface and free market, and of course killers and thieves were treated as such. But why are you bringing this subject to this page? Pauolo (talk) 16:28, March 29, 2015 (UTC) ::Perhaps a quote from Lamb might not be the best thing to mention in defining Rapture as it was (theres no mention of problems with 'security' before the malignancy that Fontaine brought and even THAT was being handled except for the effects of ADAM -- not being the kind of thing the rest of the world had previously experienced (as they exaggerate it for plot purposes). :: 02:33, March 30, 2015 (UTC) :::For Pete's sake! Must you be hypercritical of everything? The way the quote is being used in the paragraph, it's not an indictment against Andrew Ryan, his motives, or his philosophy. It was put there as an engaging and powerful way to begin the tale of Ryan Security's history; it's a basic part of Creative Writing. Yes that line is hyperbolic, but it's also iconic, poetic, and a good way to make a call back to games themselves. :::Think back to Ryan's welcome speech played during the ride down from the Lighthouse. Just as he used broad, overarching statements to decry America, Russia, and the Vatican, so too (and in the same vein) does Lamb. "Free of law and god," is simply another way of saying free from the meddlesome interference of overarching government and the false piety and hypocrisy of an old order. In her own special way, she's commending Ryan's ambition. :::Unownshipper (talk) 06:17, March 30, 2015 (UTC) :::Commending ? Listen to what she says immediately following. :::Ryan Security.... thats what this page is about. The service was to implement whatever laws existed within the Social Contract Rapture had (between its citizens -- the common belief of what was right and proper ... and what was NOT allowed). Its not some gang brutally implementing private interests outside common propriety. Ryan then used it against anarchists/terrorists destroying the city/citizens (and probably it was even expanded to be a citizens militia ... ie- "order to report"). :::Rapture was no unrealistic utopia - it had 'security' for handling the rough edges EVERY society has. Quite different from Lamb who had "Lamb as God and Law, and Lets do Away with Individualism(humanity) in the World to make it Perfect" :::Ryan's broad words talk about freedom, Lambs are about how evil individual freedom is. ::: 11:46, March 30, 2015 (UTC) ::::"''Ryan Security.... thats what this page is about." Then why are you going on another Pro-Ryan/Anti-Lamb harangue? There's nothing wrong with the way that quote is being used in the sentence on the main article. It's not like it says: Rapture was built around a principle of minimal government interference, as Sophia Lamb summarized: "a city free of law and god." That would be a biased connection to her brought out of nowhere. As the sentence is now, it's fine. ::::Unownshipper (talk) 21:28, March 30, 2015 (UTC) ::::Its a bit conflicting/contrary to have that quote almost in the first sentence about "Ryan Security", when it WAS basically the de facto police for Rapture (unless the 'Constables' was a seperate organization). The next comment block below here may explain that part of why 'no law' really makes no sense in describing Rapture. (DIdn't Ryan say "I''' will make no law" not that there is NO law.) SO actually removing that quote or putting it further below would be better. Raptures definition would be More like 'minimized official law enforcement' (fewer laws and ordinances ... and for the 'no god' - not all the morality laws usually found in our societies). And then just like in our well-policed world you could '''buy extra protection if you wanted it (including by some local communities Poppadopolis Police Department ). :::: 00:21, March 31, 2015 (UTC) :::::But YOU didn't even realize that was a quote from Lamb when you first read it. It's not conflicting or contrary to establish the background of Rapture and the philosophy upon which the city was established in the opening of the HISTORY section (especially when the words immediately before it unequivocally state "minimal government interference"). It's perfectly proper to explain the sort of environment that allowed for a private industry to become the principle force of law in a community before discussing the actual entity itself. Also, the judiciary system and the executive system are two entirely different things, so I doubt anyone would conflate the two with each other. :::::You are becoming so captious it's becoming difficult to take your objections seriously. "Minimized official law enforcement" is utterly stilted and verbose, and not entirely accurate since even though Ryan Security was contracted by the Council, that still didn't make them "official." We're writing a summary article, not the fine print of a legal contract. :::::Unownshipper (talk) 02:18, March 31, 2015 (UTC) :::::Doesnt change that I didnt agree with the 'without law' part (the god part is well specified in the game for public society but that deals with what laws ARE enforced in ths context). And having thate for a page about Ryan Security when its shown that the named entity carried out the Council's (lawful) orders to apprehend Fontaine seemed most disturbing in Rapture (up til that point in time) so as to not really indicate that they really were all just Ryan's property guards/bully boys/Gestapo with which he would have off'd both Fontaine and Lamb with without even a 'ho-hum' from the newspapers or public (what little we ever heard from them). They seem to have worked fine upto that point. *OR* since its all so vague there could have been an operationally seperate entity doing the police role -- 'City Constables' (but thats STILL law enforcement of an official kind). :::::Sullivan? Just Ryan having him ride shotgun on the Councils authorization when things got weird. :::::Consider American History where even upto the time of the game (40s) (or at least BEFORE the New Dealers expanded the government) as compared to NOW -- it WAS largely 'minimal government interference' in most of America before then. Plenty of towns/cities STILL had their police forces/local law officials. Minimal doesnt mean 'none' and in that 'minimal' there would be REQUIRED (as simple practicality) sufficient 'law and order' to maintain order and public safety for the complexity of the 'city' which Rapture was. (And I dont care for the 'its a game excuse' - they showed Rapture to be a virtual clone/attempted version of New York City and NOT todays Mogadishu which is what it WOULD look like in the anarchy of 'no law'/'no police' incarnation). :::::BTW " judiciary system and the executive system" are both part of 'the state' and interface at the police who hand over criminals for justice (how exactly a private 'security' company does THAT without control of a governing body, without authorized police powers doesn't compute in my logic). When does pseudo-offical crossover for such functions? :::::In my view Ryan Secuity (or part of it OR "The City Constables") WOULD be the designated police force for Rapture under the auspices/guidance of the Rapture City Council, and are accepted by the public (who expect such an environment and NOT the Wild West). Thus "No law" is wrong, and asserting all security was privately paid for is also ludicrous. :::::Oh "contracted by the Council, that still didn't make them "official." -- that DOES make them "official" (now you meant 'offically' police ?? So if they walk like poilce and quack like police then they arent 'police' ?? Again vague on details - what did they (if contracted) protect, not protect, what 'laws'/ordinances/statutes/whims are they allowed to enforce.... They seem to imply that Rapturites really didnt need to carry guns BEFORE all the stupidity with Fontaine/Splicers started, with NO police around - 'without law', would that even make sense? ::::: 09:17, April 1, 2015 (UTC) ::::: "While there was no State run army or police force" : The wiki pages mention 'constables' alot and that isnt usually a term for 'security agents' (or guards). That title is usually used with officially (civicly) assigned officers of the law. In Rapture with its mercantile philosophy, most companies wont pay for 'private' security of an entire area that includes public places (it would be the local community that would have to authorize it or any 'enforcement' isnt legally binding ). Security for private property - no problem (within societal limits), but thats only part of the city. Ryan Industries runs Ryan Security as a law system for the entire city (civic entity)? Isnt that really a 'police force'? Which is answerable to the Rapture City Council (and therefore its citizens) ? SO the statement "While there was no State run army or police force" may be wrong for the police part of it. 12:12, March 30, 2015 (UTC) :I've been wondering about that too. Since the Rapture Central Council was representing the people (you could definitely call that a govering body), they could have allowed funds for security and maintenance of the city to whichever company would take on the contracts (Ryan Industries, mainly). There should have been minimum taxes to make this work, a city with no taxes is impossible and would soon fall in ruins, even more in such hostile environment. And so yes, Ryan's security service were a kind of police force, investigating on the smuggling operation and other crimes opposed to Ryan's philosophy of freedom. Pauolo (talk) 15:23, March 30, 2015 (UTC) : :More than just investigating, but even having 'beat' cops walking the streets (constables) as a constant presence to prevent crime. The 'Ducky' splicers attire is that of weather gear for street policemen. Its also the common 'law' that will be enforced continually (and if citywide, universally). :Freedom still has limits (you cant just rob and steal etc...) and Ryans/Rapture's 'freedom philosophy moved a line further back from what was typical in the modern world (including from morality behavior based laws usually based on religion). :Theres also (somewhere) has to be the other component of judges/courts as 'police' (in our society) dont carry out the penalties for the crimes (and a chance for the perps to have legal defense). Its unlikely the minimal Rapture City Council handles something like that. Other legal matters/systems like honoring/enforcing contracts/property rights also have to be there for any commercial operation bigger than a hotdog stand to be run. : 00:33, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::If you want an answer for why the word "constable" is being used, it's to have a larger variety of words present for a more pleasant sounding article. It's done so that the words "security guard" aren't repeated ad nauseum which would create a droning, unpleasant block of text. ::As for the other issues, I'm afraid you're putting more thought into this than the designers have. The people who made this game are entertainers not urban philosophers or city planners. They were creating a fun and engaging thought experiment, not a literal living/breathing city. And please don't offer the "I just wish more serious thought had gone into the planning" response as clearly their priorities were different than yours and that doesn't mean the game suffers greatly. : ::Unownshipper (talk) 06:26, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::OK, then since the game is all so devoid of facts and full of vagueries (but fun), then the question is : Is the statement "While there was no State run army or police force, for-profit enterprises which..." actually supported by the game, OR is it just an assumption written here? (which you told me before we aint supposed to have on this here wiki....) Are they merely local Rent-a-Cops (or at best Mall cops) or are they public police hired to maintain a modicum of order and safety (basicly the same as Ryan keeps the heat/air/lights on in the public places)? If neither way, then the text 'there was no ... police force" isnt correct either. :: 13:05, March 31, 2015 (UTC) :::YOU are putting the entirely wrong amount of emphasis on that sentence. "While there was no State run army or police force" indicates that the the police force was not run by the State, not that there were no police forces at all. We very CLEARLY have Rapture Security and the Poppadopolis Police Department. Ryan owns RS, but the State (governing body, whatever you want to call it) doesn't begin and end with Andrew Ryan himself. He's just an individual memeber of the Council. If the whole council owned RS it'd be different. :::Are you THAT literal? Would you prefer it if the words were swapped so it read ""While there was no State run police force or army," because noun and adjective placement seems to be what your whole bone of contention boils down to with this. :::Unownshipper (talk) 21:03, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::: Can the common understanding of a 'police force' ever be something NOT run by 'the state' ? Strong man's thugs. Gangsters goons. But not 'police'. :::Actually Im being more general as to the usage of the word 'run'. Ryan Security apparently is a 'company'/'business', but it is (was) answerable to the Rapture City Council - so in that sense THEY run(ran) it.... Ryan's people maintained the (or alot of) infrastructure of Rapture (McDonagh running all over the place patching leaks and such) so who 'runs' the city maintenance Ryan or the Council?? They never quite say. :::They all work for Ryan ?? AT his orders... SO wouldnt that make HIM effectively "The State" ? Its all vague, never really detailed. In BaS they have Booker comment that everyone who came to Rapture signed some kind of contract giving Ryan all the say-so (his opinion?). But I doubt most people of the philosophical bent portrayed would EVER go as far as leave the world to ever come under those conditions. Trade the tyranny of the Parasites for the tyranny of Ryan..... no. Therefore Rapture would have its minimal government ("The State") and its NOT just Ryan. (again no real detail except what we see after the old system has fallen apart). We get the writers narrow focus displayed from the time during the Civil War, when the Councils Inactivity was costing lives, safety and the economy, and Ryan stepping up to actively do needed things. :::We dont know whats 'official' or not. Neither way. And sorry, society that we saw doesnt run in a state of anarchy with everyone who could just buying their own thugs and everyone else just knuckling under. Official is also what the people of Rapture accepted. Ryan and the Council (the government) arranged to have Ryan Security put in place (assume the citywide?) with the standards of law and order as typical of an American city of that time. We saw Ducky in a police beat cops weather outfit - modeled after a typical NYC functionary in the police force - not really the dress of a duded up Pinkerton Agent. :::So again 'run' by who? Business people who wont spend a dime on public safety outside their property, or some other entity whos interest is the public's stability/safe environment (and community accepted/empowered as would be needed for the city we are shown Rapture was). ::: 08:33, April 1, 2015 (UTC) Small businessmen WILL cooperate to hire security forces since it is cheaper for a group to hire someone than it is for every business to hire people for just themselves. (Real Life Example the Regulators of Lincoln County) Even before splicing there would still be thieves, vandals and troublemakers. And the police would have to be armed since there were no gun laws in Rapture and anyone could own firearms, including Thompson Submachine guns. In Rapture, it's made very clear that Rapture Security was a group hired by the Council to take care of law enforcement in the city. I find it likely that Ryan was the one who paid for it (He also paid for the air most people breathed) because without some sort of law enforcement the city would fall apart and Ryan wouldn't like that. And since he paid for it, Ryan would be the person to hand Rapture Security their orders (through Sullivan). However Rapture Security was too small and was more the illusion of security than it was reality. And this allowed Fontaine to grow in power. sm --Solarmech (talk) 10:01, April 1, 2015 (UTC) Lincoln County Wars .... and the Range War that resulted (lack of consensus...). I would think that teh composition of law enforcement was thought out well ahead of what was supposed to be in Rapture, because the potential colonists would ask (including the right themselves to be armed...). Possibly the 'hiring' (and pre-organization) of his own security business by Ryan was required when the institution had to exist from the very first as immigrants arrived (and for the migration operation that took place). Ryan may have added the expense to the 'rent' or whatever fees people/businesses/consortiums were charged (had included) for general utilities/maintenence. Bigger groups could probably opt-out of certain things (we saw 'Hudson Power' in a few places in Rapture - maybe indicating competition in at least that supply) and could arrange for their own but probably still adhering to the majority on the already agreed upon 'laws'. The City Security (whatever it consisted of) would have enough resources as was needed to be effective (if Ryan ran it he wouldnt waste greater money than on what was needed - that may have been adjusted at more than one point previous to the Civil War). A majority of the manpower would originally be public patrols (and monitoring) and there might be only a small 'special crimes unit' which had to be bolstered when the Smuggling became a problem. It was the plot that made the smuggling so hard to find/nail down (legally), as Rapture is a pretty small place, and too many people were connected to the crime operation (all the customers) to be hidden as long as they have it in the story. Corruption of the 'law enforcement' was possible (bribes,threats, etc), but the people Fontaine extorted/killed/bullied couldnt be kept quiet when all it took was a anonymous message to Ryan/Sullivan/Newspapers fingering Fontaine. 10:18, April 2, 2015 (UTC) :There is a HUGE difference between *knowing* Fontaine was the boss of the smugglers and being able to PROVE it. Being rich and powerful Sullivan needed rock solid proof Fontaine was guilty. You see it all in the early part of BS1 were Sullivan is trying to get he goods on Fontaine and can't. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:31, April 2, 2015 (UTC) ::Testxyz (or whoever), what are you even arguing at this point? That the smuggling ring should never have been difficult to uncover? Maybe Sullivan didn't offer the operation as much consideration/seriousness as he should have, (in Smuggling Ring, he's laughing off the participants as no threat at all when apparently they were). Once again, you're criticizing the narrative not the original topic which was the debate on whether or not there was a national police force (or maybe it the use of the word "constables" as synonym for "security officers"). ::Solarmech proposed a perfectly possible solution, so what do you want from us? I don't see it as hard to believe that a group of doctors in Medical Pavilion or shop owners in Poseidon Plaza would collaborate with each other to pay for a small security detail (whether it was RS or some other business) to patrol between their establishments. Other places like Mercury Suites might institute a security fee into their tenants' contracts. It very well could be, and the game seems to indicate, that all security forces in Rapture were privately owned. : ::Unownshipper (talk) 14:52, April 2, 2015 (UTC) ::Its funny you use this logic to back your own assumptions when you just as easily deny use of plausibility to my other various arguments. ::In any case, WHO sets/defines the limits on any 'private' security bought for only SOME places (businesses) - their property and their customers ? What of the rest of Rapture then? And the Lincoln County War was a good example of what happens when a certain interest puts 'hired law' in place which then conflicts with other people's interests (literal murders being committed under the auspices of pseudo-legal means). ::As to my mentioning the difficulties with PROVING Fontaine's involvement (or even just seizing the actual criminal operation), it is made clear that Ryan put alot of pressure on (including on Sullivan) to solve that situation LEGALLY instead of just sending in hired thugs to quickly put an end to it (again showing some overriding legal/'LAW' system existing in Rapture that Ryan fostered). ::BTW - To use YOUR logic - the use of the word 'Constables' seems to imply a civically organized force because of that terms traditional use. It very well could be 'with evidence like that, no? :: 06:20, April 3, 2015 (UTC) :::Yes, yes continue to play the martyr card, and by all means continue to make me out as some dictator impsong his will on you, it's really helping your case and building you friends. :::As for who says what security rules/organizations were imposed on what areas of Rapture, nobody here knows! We're offering the best guesses we can based on what the game presents. Sander Cohen would have say for Fort Frolic; Ryan for Hephaestus, Arcadia, etc.; Sofia Lamb for Dionysus Park (until she was ousted); Fontaine for Fontaine's Department Store, Fontaine Futuristics (Level), etc. For districts withour one single landowner like Medical Pavilion, Pauper's Drop, Olympus Heights, perhaps each individual business was in charge of their own security set up. Maybe a doctors group charged fees among the buinesses for a unified private security protection, maybe each business bought its own package. :::Yes the Lincoln County Wars are an example of what can go wrong when private forces are brought in to defend private interests but instead run amok, but what's your point? We don't have evidence that this actually happened within Rapture. The only ''possible example of this is the Ryan Security raid on Fontaine Fisheries, but you've ALWAYS asserted that that was a justifiable use of force by a contracted security business. So again, why bring this up?! :::Ok so Ryan was insistant that Sullivan find legal proof, what's you point!? No one's asserting he didn't want to bring the smuggling ring down legally!!! We all believe Rapture had some form of court for handling basic crimes (murder, fraud, assault, etc), writing marriage certificates, etc. Whether the whole of the Rapture Central Council was that court system is unclear/besides the point. Ryan would've understood the need of a basic court, but that doesn't mean that he was a judge or even set it up himself. :::I can just picture Sullivan saying "The Chief (Ryan) is on my ass to bring a conviction on this smuggling ring." Ryan is his boss. He's a concerned party. That doesn't mean he's part of the court system, so why are you bringing this up? :::I''' was the one who put in the word "constable." I've already explained that I used it for the sake of word diversity in the article. If you think it's a problem or an improper synonym, I'll change it, just get to the point. :::Unownshipper (talk) 21:31, April 3, 2015 (UTC) :::Martyr nothing. Just asking for consistency when you block a number of my logical assumptions and allow others based on 'seems' instead of whats in the game. :::And like I say in several places what happens AFTER the Civil War starts and by the time BS1 is seen the original city system is qyuite changed and "out of whack". Before that is what I am talking of - what law enforcement HAD to be there for a small city environment to run as a viable entity. You name a bunch of commercial areas, but what of the rest of Rapture. Its rather disruptive to have disjoint law enforcement (with different rules) - there had to be some standards for what the majority found aceptable and which likely was planned ahead so the immigrants could be assured they werent just taking a one way walk into a police state tehy DIDNT WANT. :::"Lincoln County wars" - whats my point? Its what you plan to NOT have in your city. Its actually what was similar to Fontaine Atlas having his own thugs to press HIS agenda and Ryan having the City's law enforcement trrying to counter them. Notice what happened when THAT was the case in Rapture (civil war)? Thats why you want cohesive law institution - something that goes far beyond some rent-a-cop system you are proposing - the citizens confidence is something important for the rest of Rapture's philosophy to work without EVERYONE making up their own rules as they go along. :::Ryan/Sullivan/legal proof --- why would he need to do such if he just rents thugs to do anything he wants? What common 'social contract' limits what he or anyone else hiring this alleged (only) private security can do ? Peer pressure? Courts with no police attached/integrated? WIth no common codified enforcement against the guy with alot of goons hes bought, he just has you killed and laughs "Who are You to tell me what to do? You Nobody.". You dont build a typical american style commercial city around such an environment. So there HAD to be an overriding understanding that held everyone in check (including Ryan and Fontaine) for the whole place to be stable. A big part of that is institutionalizing the law enforcement which is expected (by all the citizens) and MADE to adhere to common standards and application (and limitations) of laws/statues/regulations/edicts/whatever. :::Imagine your consternation of trying to figure out who you should call for help (which private security had jurisdiction...) when you needed to interact with them to enforce whatever you think is supposed to be enforced (and to try remember all the different rules you needed to follow locally in different 'privately secured' places or even be shot/beaten/expelled/fined for new rules posted last weak). It would be chaos. NOT a way to run a city (or for one to survive for 10 years til the place exploded in civil war). :::Isnt 'Constables' mentioned in the game several times ? Thats what I am refering to (not the use on the wiki page). Heh - wasnt there just one number listed on the phones for 'police' ? ::: 11:36, April 4, 2015 (UTC) :::People, please calm down and listen to what each other has to say. We're here to share ideas, not to compare our knowledge or whatever. :::On constable, Peach Wilkins mention the term in Putting the Screws On (and the novel too, but let's keep it out of this debate), though it's probably just his view on the security forces, as it isn't reused in the game or its sequel. I can't really comment on this term though, I think it's inner to the United states police organization, we don't really have something similar in France except police officers, or perhaps the Gendarmerie which is more a military force than an urban one. If you think the term isn't appropriate to describe Rapture's security men then so be it, Unownshipper said he is open to that idea. :::Commercial areas were probably owned by groups of people (an order of doctors for the Medical Pavilion?) while apartment buildings (Artemis Suites, Hestia Chambers, Mercury Suites) had maybe a single one (the original investors of Rapture?). If each buildings were the responsibility of one owner or group of people, there could have been more than just Ryan Security to assure security of them (I think Persephone had its own firm through Sinclair Solutions) or they could have passed by the Council to be advised one based on their needs. The court (and there had too be one) was run by the Council or any other group representative of the city's inhabitants, but I don't think there were any written laws in Rapture, just what the people decided (hence a city without laws). The whole idea with the Rapture experiment was that people decided what people want, with themselves as a whole for deciding regulations. Ryan probably had to convince them really hard that smuggling was endangering Rapture to have hanging authorized, or possible riots helped a lot to convince the population. :::Still yes, you want a cohesive law institution for a city to work properly, but the only institution Ryan wanted in his city was for the people to decide themselves what is a crime and what isn't. The place of the Council was probably more to unite the population's thoughts than just governing Rapture. I think that's what the novel fails to show, how society was truly working in Rapture and that Ryan only had power through Ryan Industries dealing with a lot of the city's resources, energy and maintenance, not because he was given a title. Pauolo (talk) 12:05, April 4, 2015 (UTC) :::"any written laws in Rapture", "just what the people decided" ... The problem is an old one and at the level of complexity for a modern city (which Rapture emulated) where people want certainty so they can make more than trivial decisions. (Ive mentioned before the question of HOW you can have any commerce of any good size (bigger than a popcorn stand) without commercial law existing, so that contracts can be created and enforced. ) :::When laws are written down, then people can point to them and say "THATS what it says and I did X within The Law", instead of some judge ruling arbitrarily (as they feel like - law by whim), and the unfortunate non-mindreaders getting stung. Hammurabi's code, Magna Carta, The US Constitution, etc.. all an important solid legal (known) basis to make decisions upon (and which then could define expected behavior within the Social Contract). :::Even the system by which 'laws are decided' is itself define as a law (how do you decide when consensus is achieved, as without consensus the laws aren't effectively binding. :::Courts implement law (as do police) , and again the complexity of all the interactions of people within a city are too much for some 'everyone should play nice', or worse 'all do what you want' arbitrariness of nebulous assumed laws. No laws being written down is hard to conceive of other than being legal/societal chaos (police are NOT judges and need to know exactly what they are to enforce, and any 'private' police similarly must be limited). :::Ryan said "I''' will make no law", giving the power to decide the laws to the citizens, but he would have the expected laws to be enforced consistently and offenders face a legal court to maintain lawful order, so that his achievers he (his philosophy) is trying to foster have a stable environment and not face law based on who has the most gold or the biggest club. :::As I said before - commercial areas where someone will pay ... fine. But what about all the places where no one will pay? What is the default for such places? The law of the jungle ? Wild West? :::Would Ryan want a city with 'bunker mentality' ? Not likely for what Rapture was supposed to be. Common understood laws is the basis (if the city wasn't atheist they could at minimum point at the Bible, but in Rapture they don't even have that backbone of western civilization. :::The people decide what the laws are. OK but how is that then achieved? How do you recognize consensus unless you announce the decision being made to the populace so they know what law they have to live under (and have enforced upon the population). :::SO again by simple logic (and assuming that Rapture isn't supposed to be a fantasy place where 'law' is done by magic) such a place requires a plausible system to exist. '''Written Laws (whatever they are - sufficient for a 'city' full of people) - originally preset before immigrants arrived (minimized from what exists 'up there', but allowing for personal rights and of property), and the system allowing some additions/modifications made by consensus (including represenitive bodies like the Rapture City Council) across Rapture's time of existence (10+ years), Courts of some kind appointed by consensus to interpret and given authority to apply those laws, some kind of law enforcement under the common laws for the public places (can still be hired from a private entity to provide the manpower), and with allowed 'security' enhancements within the scope of private property (but still constrained by the overriding common laws). ::: 16:45, April 5, 2015 (UTC) :So I've lost the train of though of this conversation, being busy at something else and all. Can we just sum up what needs to be changed on this page and call it an end? Pauolo (talk) 15:21, April 9, 2015 (UTC) :1) the statement "a city free of law and god." contradicts what is explained in the game - so should be put elsewhere or the contradiction explained (it is part of a statement Lamb deriding individual freedom) :2) the verbage shouldnt assume that all 'law enforcement' in rapture was private or only got its directives from individuals or companies. stating there is 'no state police' likewised is contradicted when they get their orders from the Rapture City Council (if we dont also have 'constables' walking the public streets). : 01:57, April 10, 2015 (UTC) : ::Counterpoint: ::1)The line does not contradict anything based on its placement in the article, specifically, the background section explaining the Rapture dream. "Law," as used in that quote is recognized to mean to overreaching govenments of Capitalistic America and Communistic Russia. ::2)EVERYTHING from the game seems to indicate that all law enforcement in Rapture was overseen by private companies. The notion that it wasn't comes from one trivial detail (the "police" number on Pay-phones) and own personal opinions that such a system would not hold up in real life. The 'no state police' issue seems to simply be a grievance of syntax. Whether Ryan Security got its orders from the Central Council or not, the council as a whole still neither oversaw the daily operation of or privately owned RS. Only a single memeber of the council did. Therefore, not state run. ::Unownshipper (talk) 06:38, April 10, 2015 (UTC) ::@Unownshipper: I think he means that not everyone will get the sarcastic tone of the quote and that it may be misleading to some. Would there be a comment system on this wiki like on all recent ones (dear God no ._.) there would be remarks about people interpreting the quote differently. So yes we should probably remove that quote. ::We don't know if they get orders from the Council, we only know that they wait for their approval for investigations in some places and later executions. Even if I agree with a reason for police state to exist in Rapture, we don't have enough proof of that and others simply contradict it. We had BioShock 2 mentions Ryan's private forces and Sullivan did work under Ryan rather than the Council. ::However, one question which could could probably put an end to this debate and start a more useful one is: are Ryan Security and Rapture Security one and the same? Or perhaps this: was Ryan Security offering better services like security detail (like Sullivan suggests in Artist's Feud) and automated systems to private companies in addition to assuring basic police work? Pauolo (talk) 07:11, April 10, 2015 (UTC) ::The police phone number was a minor thing (but notice it is called 'police' and not 'security' or Ryan/Rapture Security (or some other local paid company) -- so its a hint of a more general law enforcement institution. Actually the 'constable' references are much more significant - ever hear of private security refered to as that ? I keep emphasizing that Rapture was a city that was supposed to work (not fantasy) thus would have some public represenative controlled police entity for all the places noone wanted to pay for private security. Demonstrated is the obvious need -- what 'private security' Fontaine had hired must be conspiring to cover up crimes - so how are overall common laws to be enforced in such cases? It is impractical to say there is no way. The actions of the City Council show there is a larger jurisdiction to authorize actions/deputize in the name of the common laws iof the whole city. Thus law, thus 'state' law powers. ::Anyway, that Sullivan audio diary Artist's Feud is quite strange - with personalities (Cohen/Culpepper) trying to have 'his' security detail take sides -- to do what ? Harassment and Intimidation? Murder? Both are extra-legal actions. Exclude the other from private property? that can already be done by private security legally so not likely to be what he is talking about? Date of this audio diary ? After/Before Civil War? Sullivan is caught in the middle and goes to the 'big man' for an answer. In more settled times he would just tell the two to go to court over any personal feud. But after things are more dodgy (martial law?) and accusation of treason are flung about ? ::How is Sullivan even supposed to have the authority to do whatever it is that he is being pressured to do (and from 2 members of the City Council?) Why is he supposedly beholden to them at all? Obvious reason there should be 'official' police to head off private faction thugs taking over the city. ::Sullivan is implicated in the game (vaguely as always) of killing Culpepper (Bump Culpepper?) - but when? Why? Or even did he? Who knows and it hardly seems something that Ryan would do for Cohen alone. Involvement in the Jolene betrayal of Ryan? Culpepper proven to be siding with the terrorist Atlas? No real details except the insufficient excuse of some insults. ::Vague ontop of vague. :: 12:07, April 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::I agree with Unownshipper with this issue. Ryan actually does say that he "founded Rapture to be free of law and god..." in his audio diary Generation, so it's not only verbage by Lamb. ::::As for the payphones, they don't say "police", they actually say security, which could very well be a private enforcement business operating in the district or building or business even. Notice the only example we have for some kind of security force apart from Ryan Private Security is the semi- canon Poppadopolis Police Department, where the advertisement even says "Don't trust your family with the WRONG police department" meaning that there were security firms more than actually law enforcements operating in Rapture since they aren't operating as one unit as they were subscription security/ police services. Another example of private security forces is Tom & Dave Hired Guns service. Why have subscription or privatized security services if law enforcements actually existed in Rapture in the form of citywide police forces? ::::The Council probably acted as judge and jurors in what would be civil and criminal cases if they were to arise and warranted arrests to Sullivan and Ryan Security. Andrew Ryan provided a service for his people, so while private parties or businesses can purchase his security services, he still has to serve his city with minimal "government" policy as possible. As for the Artist Feud audio diary, Ryan was probably already fed up with Culpepper and her antics and Cohen was the final tic he needed to push. Though no date or time was given, the novel does place her death after the war started rolling. Culpepper sided with no one but she was against Ryan and she saw through the propaganda he had Cohen dish out and spoke out against it. With supporters and others, even as far as members of the City Council, going against him (presuming this was sometime after the New Years riot) Ryan was fed up with legalities. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. ::::And to note, the term constable is not limited to a fully empowered officer of law. To quote, "A constable may be an official responsible for service of process: such as summonses and subpoenas for people to appear in court in criminal and/or civil matters... In many states (US), constables do not conduct patrols or preventive policing activities. In such states the office is relatively obscure to its citizens."Tricksteroffools (talk) 15:18, April 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::'Free of law' (agent of a tyranical state) dominance, likely not society free of lawful behavior (even with private security, what THEN IS being enforced ?? What standards? Arbitrary? Its still an oxymoron to mention that on a page about the people in Rapture enforcing 'laws'). :::: ::::A 'Constable' is almost always a civic/public law/peace officer, often elected. :::: ::::"Sammy G. comes and tells me he's thinking of going to the constable..." doesnt sound like it is about going to private security, and even Atlas mentions 'coppers' somewhere. :::: ::::"WRONG police department" ... ever hear of a security company/guards/mall cops refered to as a 'police department'. Again smacks of public organized law enforcement, no ? I never said there wasnt 'enhanced' security available, just that there BETTER be an overriding law system (do the 'security' serve as judge jury and executioners too? and for what crimes/misdemeanors?) ::::And if the Rapture City Council (or rather court(s) appointed by them since a city has more incidents than a handful of parttime busy people could handle) fulfils judiciary duties, then WHAT again are they judging (as in common LAWS which include common standards for the deportment/processes of law enforcers/cops/police/constables/security agents/mall cops). :::: ::::"Why have subscription or privatized security services if law enforcements actually existed in Rapture in the form of citywide police forces?" ::::Why do WE in our society ? :::: 01:49, April 11, 2015 (UTC) :::::OH MY GOSH! Why must you impose the notion that this system wouldn't work in real life when it's shown to work in this game. You're just voicing your disappointment that this game wasn't "true to life," not actually deabting this (utterly insignificant) issue with us. :::::"Constable" is just a word. Sometimes people are careless with their word choice (Hell, YOU use that as an example in your reply "ever hear of a security company/guards/mall cops refered to as a 'police department'."). You keep using one shot trivial details when the majority of info points to subscription based services. Why? :::::As Trickster pointed out, Ryan used the phrase "Free of Law and God," and Ryan didn't even use it in a flippant manner in Generation. I knew I had heard that line from the game, but I misattributed to Lamb. :::::No one here is trying to prevent you from voicing your opinions or concerns, just PLEASE be consistent and direct with what you want and be willing to compromise with us rather than being critical of the game. :::::Unownshipper (talk) 07:01, April 11, 2015 (UTC) :::::The difference with this game to Infinite is it is a 'what if' situation where you take the (nostalgic, close to real ) society from the middle 40s and then superimpose Ryan's shifted libertariian society (which actually ISNT that far from what largely WAS in America decades earlier) and dump on a technological shock (bio shock ....). People/society reacts as we would expect (as far as we understand people from that time ... "greatest generation" and all that). Its the foil that the sci-fi changes stand out against - a hopefully close approximation of that KNOWN society being subjected to the impact of a societal shaking element and then the reaction they have to it (and that we might cringe at because its 'real'). :::::Ive already stated ad nausem my opinion of 'infinite' in its departures from historic reality (what its society is supposed to be based on) before the whole quantum/cultism weirdness hits it. They (writers) lost virtually all the original America the place supposedly sprung from, and weirdness heaped on weirdness loses that whole believability (reducing it to simply 'look good' effects for a shooter game). :::::Anyway... Thus Rapture should more have reflected reality from the recognizable times it was set in, and the societal mechanisms that were logical and plausible/workable in defining the setting, and then affected by its transition to the dystopia. Not just a set of details thrown together with little cohesion or logic for a ruined 'might have been'. :::::Living City = Population + Law. Its a constant in all of history. :::::SO All of this, as fun as it has been to contemplate , is about this page about "Ryan Security" having in almost its first few sentences simplistically talk about/imply that somehow there is no law as a component of its existance, and all the 'enforcement' is private (beholden only to the paying individual and HIS motives). :::::Sure we can make reference to Ryan's statement, but need to explain what he is REALLY speaking about (tyranny of 'law' (authority) for its own sake, or as a club used by the 'few haves' (or the mob) to get what they want to the detriment of society (or a s Ryan might have put it : 'crushing individuals achievement's ability to move humanity forward'). ::::: 12:07, April 12, 2015 (UTC) :::::On and as for your 'by subscription' law enforcement, you get what you pay for. Who decides WHAT is enforced? (and "Who watches the Watchers" - Juvenal/Plato's Republic) Would the 'paid servitors' do anything more than exactly what they are paid for? :::::"Oops you got mugged outside the line and were screaming for help? Thats not our jurisdiction... you're not paying us for that...." :::::What if you didnt like the way you were treated by XYZ districts hired thugs/guards. Sorry no higher authority you can apeal to. :::::Just think about it for a little while -- of all the fun cases where the system you are proposing falls down (nd very quickly as criminals/people are quite clever at being rule lawyers, finding things that are to their advantage). :::::Do YOU go over with YOUR hired thugs to get satisfaction from those OTHER peoples hired thugs when you disagree about how and what things were 'enforced'. :::::And no, you cant just assume that everyone knows what is expected/acceptable and will automatically have THEIR security run in that manner. In our world (America anyway) security businesses have to adhere to certain laws and an external system exists that enforces those standards upon THEM and have them otherwise be legally culpable. :::::Theres another name for 'local' security - its called 'the Protection Racket'. :::::Just something to contemplate. ::::: 12:07, April 12, 2015 (UTC) :::::Another Issue of why modern societies have large area law enforcement entities - how do you investigate and pursue criminals across local boundries ? ::::: Private Security X doesnt want Private Security Y infringing on their turf, but customer Y demands apprehending criminals who committed crimes in their 'bought' Y area but escaped to area X. But Security X doesnt enforce such 'laws' (and wont accept accusations of anyone from outside), and even has it declared it is against the 'local' laws to act on THEIR territory... :::::In our world WE have jurisdictional lines also, but law proceses standards defined and enforced for cooperation, and jurisdictional spanning entities like Scotland Yard/Interpol/FBI etc... ::::: 16:16, April 12, 2015 (UTC) ::::::To your first two paragraphs, thank you (no sarcasm here) for that well thought out explanation for why people enjoy the game. I sincerely agree with you that that is the reason why BioShock and it's adjunct games are so commercially popular and critically well-regarded. ::::::I do however believe that the idea (at the very least, the idea) of a subscription-based security force from a private firm would in fact be appealing to the kind of people who would make the journey to Rapture. These men and women lived through the Great Depression, witnessed the nationalization of private interest by the government, and had seen police corruption throughout Prohibition and onwards. I feel it does reflect the times the game is set in by having them be leery of a larger governement institution and instead put their trust in a private company owned by a man they respected like Andrew Ryan (or Poppadopolis, whoever s/he was). Under this set up, these officers weren't just more faceless symbols of the status quo patriarchal authority, rather, they are fellow working men who take pride in their job/the sweat of their brow just like the regular citizens. I apologize if it seems schmaltzy, I'm just saying that I can see it being attractive to your average Rapturian. ::::::And yes, you get what you pay for, but, just like in the Rapture Residency contracts Booker DeWitt mentioned, we have to assume that things were carefully spelled out in whatever contracts were made with the clients. And any gaps that might've been left open in these contracts also probably explains why Rapture was so loose and free with gun laws that not only could a person own a Tommy Gun, they could buy ammo for it in a vending machine. Yes, you've spelled out how such a system could easily become corrupted. The fact remains though that we have evidence of subscription-based private security companies, but no evidence of a unified State Police. I'm sure that if Ken Levine and the game creators either A. had more time or B. needed to put more emphasis on the police force, then they would have. Alas, many things likely changed during the production phase. For the purposes of BioShock's narrative, an in-depth, more reality-based examination of Rapture's policing was not needed. You make logical points, but they're mostly moot now since the game's been completed, packed, and shipped for years. ::::::I still don't believe that the page is implying that there is no law/court system in Rapture. You say that you don't mind the reference to Ryan's statement, but that you'd like further explanation of his meaning, correct? Because I do feel that the line is impactful in its current placement, would you please offer a secondary or tertiary sentence right here that might put it in context? If no one has a problem with it, we could easily implement it into the History section. ::::::Unownshipper (talk) 20:10, April 12, 2015 (UTC) Reference for the Quotes Should we add the name of the audio files as source for the quotes? Just like we you did for most of the Multiplayer Characters? ex: Buck Raleigh Killed a Rosie (BusinessmanBDKillVox) *''"Hell's bells, government's gettin' bigger!"'' *''"Your regulations just make me creative."'' *''"Solidarity is for the dead."'' *''"I own your death!"'' Shacob (talk) 22:54, May 17, 2015 (UTC) :Sorry Shacob, who are you referring to specifically? I don't understand your question. :Unownshipper (talk) 04:14, May 26, 2015 (UTC) :Yikes, my apologies. The question was if we should add the source file name, ex. (BusinessmanBDKillVox), to the Ryan Security quotes, like we did to the MP characters (The following is a list of phrases that Buck Raleigh will say during multiplayer games. The name of the source audio file is listed, when known.) The "like we you did for" part referred to the fact that I did not help with the sourcing for the MP quotes. :Pawn of Atlas thankfully added the source file in his truly appreciated videos, so the job would be quite easy. :Shacob (talk) 22:25, May 27, 2015 (UTC) ::Oh yeah, totally. The ones that clearly are listed under specific file names in Pawn of Atlas' videos should certainly be mirrored on the main page. ::Unownshipper (talk) 02:36, May 28, 2015 (UTC) ::It is done. There was two quotes that didn't come up in the video, located under 'Searching Elizabeth:' *''"It's nothing personal, sister." *"''I've got your number!" --Shacob (talk) 20:11, May 28, 2015 (UTC) Quotes So I wanted to ask if I may add quotes to the subsections in the History portion of the article page? For example: Establishing Order - "What sharks do to for the ocean, these men do for Rapture." -Andrew Ryan Securing Rapture - "Now look, I don't make the laws here, I just enforce them." - Sullivan Combating Rebellion - "there's armed men all over the place... I saw a woman climb over the fence trying to escape... one of Ryan's guards pointed at her, and she lit on fire... just like that. What's happening here?" - Diane McClintock OR - "'Stead he's just splicing his mob up, giving them more and tougher Plasmids. There's an arms race on here in Rapture." -Bill McDonagh Let me know what you all think! Tricksteroffools (talk) 06:12, September 1, 2015 (UTC) Dogs part of Ryan Security? Above Rapture Tribune, the caption says "Police, Dogs Foil Burglary" Now assuming that this is an early newspaper (Talks about the Kashmir bombing, etc.), the paper is not calling the authorities dogs, so it can mean one of two things. That either the police forces (Ryan Security) have dogs similar to K-9 services or that they are separate elements that just furthers that dogs existed in the city of Rapture just as cats have. Thoughts? Tricksteroffools (talk) 08:00, September 10, 2015 (UTC) : Dogs would be a great asset or even a necessity to counter the smuggling that was happening. They could also be used for crowd control, in riots and general policing. Not sure if they would be allowed for personal or home security. 22:31, September 10, 2015 (UTC) Why are there no non-spliced security guards? I've played through time and time again, and yet I've never seen a single non-spliced security guard. It's really strange, given that I would have expected there to be a mix - say, those using the guns being non-spliced and Splicers making up a small cadre of the forces at Ryan's disposal. This also applies to Fontaine's group, given that, undoubtedly, not every one of his supporters would have been splicers. I would've expected there to be at least ''some ''human Ryan Security/Fontaine's thugs. ScienceGuy44 (talk) 19:05, December 19, 2015 (UTC) Perhaps we don't go through too many places which are under Ryan's secure control (normal places where things have to be done to keep the citizens alive). Atlas/Fontaine wants to get Jack to Ryan intact and running him through real/competant opposition might not work too well. So we are led along a path through the disrupted/ruined areas and places where semi-deranged splicers largely still inhabit (the sane ones headed in the opposite direction from the maniac shooting everything in sight). 15:03, December 20, 2015 (UTC)